Transcript of leaked call with Meteora’s Ben Chow

Moty Povolotski: Yeah, just to explain, we happened to be — and by the way, I'm jetlagged like crazy, I haven't slept for 17 hours — but apart from that, just wanted to explain.

We were building a protocol and we got a lot of interest. And one of the interests that we got was specifically from Kelsier, from Dr. Tom,^a as you know him very well, and Hayden,^b and his brother Gideon.^c They wanted to invest, and long story short, we just couldn't have enough ticket size. And so I managed to hustle them in for $30k, nothing significant. And they started approaching us for other requests.

Besides the point, our co-founder is sort of passive and he's really good at liquidity providing. So they asked, “Hey, could you give us a hand with liquidity provision? We want to do all sorts of like, we need all sorts of help with liquidity provision.” And the co-founder, Vlad, he's very good, he's been doing it for three and a half years. He was also part of version one, version two, version three. He's been there, done that. And we started, you know, I sort of let Vlad take care of things and I sort of kept a very brief look over the entire thing. It has nothing to do with DefiTuna, it was just a separate venture that we're doing. And, you know, slowly we get to know each other and we learn more and more about what they're doing. M3M3,^d Meteora,^e and we get to know more and more about the involvement of Meteora. And slowly I start realizing that all of this is growing a little bit ugly and out of control.

Specifically speaking, why do I say ugly? There is a lot of...

Ben Chow: It's clearly ugly now, man. I mean, it's, yeah.

MP: A lot of the tokens— so I'll give you an example. One scary thing was when, you know, $MELANIA came out. Like 30 minutes before $MELANIA token, somehow Hayden knows about the ticker, Hayden — not 30, but, you know — Hayden knows about it being retweeted, and he's sort of telling it to Vlad, and he has 1% supply sent over, and he's asking him to provide liquidity. And I'm thinking “how many people is he telling [this] to at the same time as well?” because there's a lot of wallet sniping. Now, the wallets that sniped $MELANIA also sniped all the other consecutive launches. And I'm starting to think that there's a very big internal— insider trading going on.

BC: No. Holy shit. Really?

MP: Well, I don't know, Ben. I honestly don't even know what to say.

BC: [sigh]

MP: From my understanding also, you know...

BC: Yeah. Well, let me ask you this. What you know, facts on the ground, is that he... your co-founder was given token to $MELANIA before the launch?

MP: Um... Hayden was taking care of— but I believe Ben, you knew this, because you actually gave a lot of the instructions. From Hayden's point of view, he many times would get on a call with you or a text to you, and he'd give— he’d say, “oh, Ben said this. Ben said that. Ben said it's launching this. Ben said she's going to tweet.” So, this is a little bit foreign, like, this is a bit weird on my side that you sound surprised.

BC: Well, I— well look, I don't know what happens underneath Hayden. And so, with... I was involved in the $MELANIA one. I'm not involved in everything to all degrees, right? But $MELANIA was... I don't know. You know, that was a very... That was... You know, like, people tend to not know what they're doing? And that one was so high-profile and sort of rushed. And those guys were like... You know, it's kind of that I didn't want them to fuck it up, you know? So... I was trying to help them because there were issues on things. And... So, you know... So, you know. Ugh, man, that's crazy. Actually, wasn't aware of any of this stuff, that he doesn't... I don't know. Like, in fact, I thought I knew things, but I guess I don't know anything. So, but I'm surprised that he... So, what was your co-founder doing with this?

MP: Look. We didn't know what was going on because we were given... well, I was not given tokens. Our co-founder was being given tokens. Those tokens came from mint address. So, whoever minted it, obviously sent it from the treasury. And Vlad was given the very simple instruction of just liquidity provider Meteora, specifically Meteora, because Ben doesn't want it anywhere else.

BC: Uh huh.

MP: I would check in at once every three days, but that was particularly weird for me, the fact that it came from treasury. At a certain stage, it was scary numbers, Ben. It was like $100 million or something like that.

BC: Yeah.

MP: I told Vlad, when Vlad called me, I told him, look, Vlad, return everything. Don't keep a penny. Whatever you do, just return anything. This could be anyone's money. You don't know whose money it is. You don't know what's happening. And he did so, and then Hayden was like, “don't freak out, whatever, this is— we got permission, all is good.” And after two, three days, he returned with a cool head. He spoke with Hayden, Hayden explained that everything is legal, this is sort of like his payment on his marketing deal, 1%. I guess he also mentioned that he gets 1%, a cut with you, sort of, for bringing projects to Meteora or something like that.

BC: What? No, no man, that’s not true at all. What?

MP: Like a 1% from things that get listed on Meteora, I guess? Through him or whatever?

BC: No!

MP: There’s some kind of cut. I don't know. A 1% cut.

BC: What? What?

MP: Like token... a 1% cut?

BC: Wait, who takes a 1% cut?

MP: 1% cut that belongs to Kelsier.

BC: He gets a percent? Okay, sure. Okay fine. And then?

MP: Is that right?

BC: I mean, I don't know, actually. I'm not in... Okay, look, I just want to be clear, like. I make connections, right? Okay? And then... and the $MELANIA team, you know, needed help with stuff, made connection with Hayden. They need help with stuff. They were just— they didn't really know how things were happening. So I was just giving them, “hey, look, do this, this, this, and this,” alright? And then, you know, and when there were issues, I'd be like, “oh, wow, you really need help. You need help here. Like, do this, this, and this,” you know? Like, I'm just troubleshooting, like IT. Like, oh, look, this thing's... because I think one time they didn't... I don't know. They weren't able to put... maybe they were having issues putting LP in, and maybe that's why he contacted your co-founder, because maybe he didn't have issues. I don't know. He just knew how to do LP management, liquidity, provide liquidity, right?

I don't know what the business... like, I don't know what the business arrangements he has with $MELANIA or the other teams, right? Like, I just sort of, you know, help with tech support, and it should, you know, it's like, whatever going crazy, I'll be like, “hey, do this kind of stuff,” right? But I'm not like... you know, I'm not... I'm not... I'm not... I don't know. I don't know. Like, it's not like, it's not my thing, you know? It's like, I'm just trying to help people when they're stuck.

But yeah, I didn't know about this. Okay. Holy shit. Wow, this is new to me. Okay. So, well, he had— I guess he had your co-founder LP...

MP: Yeah, um...

BC: Maybe that’s okay because he needed help getting someone to LP for...?

MP: So, when I checked that it came from treasury I butted in, I said, “Vlad, cut all... everything”. I wrote to Kelsier saying, “listen, guys, I don't know what you guys are running here. I cannot... we don’t want anything to do with this. If you guys want to work with Vlad, Vlad works separately, but I cannot take responsibility.” I sent a message to Dr. Tom. My wife and myself, we had an anniversary. Dr. Tom invited us over, so I flew into Barcelona. At the time, Jakey^f was there as well. I spent two days with Dr. Tom, with Kelsier. I got to know them better.

And, you know, we... people talk. A lot of things started opening up.

BC: Uh huh?

MP: And you just... you know, like, “oh, we have exclusivity with Milei,^g we have exclusivity with Milei.” So, you know, I'm starting to understand that these guys are, you know, hustling with serious guys. “McGregor,^h we were talking with McGregor, Portnoy,ⁱ all these all potential things. And can we continue working with yourself on Vlad?” I outlined all the issues that I have with this kind of arrangements. And I said, “listen, guys, we need to be doing it in the right way, in a clean way.” They talked with Vlad, and they asked me, “hey, can we work with Vlad, because we still have all these launches.” I asked them, “is it legit?” They said, “yeah, it's everything's clean. Everything's legit. Everything's done properly.” You know, we spent two, three days there. We leave, and, you know, they're going on and doing the Android token— er, $ENRON.^j $ENRON. And with that as well, again, same thing. Snipes. Like, everyone’s sniping the token.

BC: Yeah.

MP: Now, Ben.

BC: What?

MP: I was there physically, and the guys are sniping it.

BC: Really?

MP: The guys are sniping it.

BC: They’re sniping it.

MP: They’re sniping it. All the friends are sniping it. They're sending CAs to everyone and their mother.

BC: What the fuck? Really?

MP: Meteora knows about... Meteora, I’m sure Meteora has people who’re sniping with them, I’m sure Jupiter^k has—

BC: No, no, there’s no one in Meteora that— First of all, no one partici—. Like, look, first of all. [coughs] No one was involved in $ENRON. Okay? On the Meteora side. Or Jupiter side, or anything. Right? I originally spoke to the $ENRON team, and then I made one connection, not even to Hayden, to another— they needed some market-making help. I connected to another team that I know. And then that team came to me and told me the tokenomics, and I was like, “hell no”. Like, “I'm not touching this. You guys should not touch this.” Like, “this looks terrible.” Like, “don't do any of this shit.” And then I backed away, and I, and I stopped— I didn't talk to that guy anymore. And I was like, “whatever”. Like, I'm not, I'm not involved. And then, and then I somehow heard that Hayden had picked it up or something. Oh— Actually, I didn't know any of this stuff. During the early phase, I think Hayden and that guy knew each other or wanted to connect, so I connected them, actually. But then I just stepped away. I was like, “fuck it. I don't want to, like, I don't want to be a part of this thing.” But I never, I wasn't a part of the $ENRON thing. Like, I didn't know it launched. Like, it just happened. They did it.

MP: Look, Kelsier is very much affiliated with M3M3 and with everything. You know, it's very close. To be there and just see how, sorry, but like...

BP: So, so— actually no, please tell me, because actually I don't know this.

MP: Like, I'm sitting down and I'm seeing everyone's got their phone. Everyone knows the contract address.

BP: Who?

MP: Like, Gideon, Hayden, Dr. Tom, everyone's sitting at a table. And they're all with their phones, they all have snipe bots ready, they all have all the CA—

BP: They're all sniping it? It's them sniping?

MP: Well, but Ben, it's not only them. There is even, I'm 100% sure that it's also Jake, Jake, involved, everyone’s involved...

BP: [garbled] What the fuck? All of them? Holy shit!

MP: ... I'm sure the influencer is involved ...

BP: Fuck me. Oh my God. What the fuck. [continues swearing in the background]

MP: And like, there are people that bypass them. Like, they do it faster than them. And it's like, look, all— the whole thing just looks rotten to the very, to the very core. Like, I don't have words to express, like... I looked at, I asked my co-founder, “what the hell?” He's like, “yeah, everyone's sniping”. I’m like “of course, snipe— look, I'm sitting down and everyone's sniping it. What the fuck?” The cherry on top was that I thought that they finished working and I told, you know—

I sent Hayden and Tom, because they were really eager to invest into us and to build all sorts of tooling internally, uh DefiTuna, and be a part of us, I sent them to Orca, to Nathan to be— to have a proper chat. Because, frankly, I needed a third opinion about these people. So they finished the call with Nathan, and I ask, “well, what's going on? How is everything?”

And on the same night, they sort of disappear, I'm guessing they're busy, I'm about to go to bed, and I see the whole fiasco around Milei. Now, I know they had exclusivity with Milei, because Dr. Tom told me they had exclusivity with Milei. I look over, I open the chart, I open the communications, and I see that it’s— I think, I don't know, $300, $200 million was extracted from the entire thing? Something fucking sick, insane. And the way it was done was rotten to the core. Right there and then, Hayden couldn't bullshit anymore because, there and then, I knew that he had 100% control over the entire thing, it was him responsible, he had exclusivity. Before he could tell me, “yeah, you know, we are playing with our 1% commission”? Now this was just the cherry on top. I told Vlad, “Vlad, cut the shit.” I wrote Hayden a very rough message. I wrote Dr. Tom a very rough message. And then I, the first thing I did is I contacted everybody that was around that had anything to do with this. I said we don't want to have any part of this, this is not us, this is not the way we do things. As soon as I found out about this, I wrote Hayden. And Hayden maybe got offended, I don't care that people get offended. I, you know, this is definitely not cool. I wrote SOLBigBrain,^l our supporter, because he was also the guy who sort of vouched for Dr. Tom. And I spoke with Nathan, because Nathan also sort of had a call with Kesier, and we all got, you know, exposed to this.

You know what happened. Like, basically they just rugged. Legit, like, you know, if there's a rug, this was a rug, like, 101. And everyone was in it. From the insiders to the — what's his name, the guy who... — to Degods^m to Jakey, to I'm sure— everyone and their mother, everybody knew about it. And everybody sniped it. And some people were early, other people were late. And a lot of people lost money.

And the worst thing of all is, it's a president that gets a bad image. And whenever presidents get involved, and if they become angry, you know, you don't want to be there. Not only that, this is international. This isn't $20. This is not $100 million. This is like 200 to— this is FTXⁿ type of shit.

BC: Fucking hell, man. I feel sick. I feel so sick, man. Holy shit. I feel really, really fucking sick. Oh my god.

MP: This is like Do Kwon,^o or what's his name, type of money. I mean...

BC: This is, this is, this is, this is SBF^p level, man.

MP: When somebody says then, you know, when he's cornered, “oh, we're going to buy back the token, because we believe in this project.” I mean, what the hell?

BC: Fuck.

MP: Like, who comes up with this? I don't know, and— And, Ben, like, honestly, like, I want to bring this forward because I want this to be in the light and for everyone to deal with this problem. You know...

BC: [loud exhale]

MP: I frankly don't know. I'm lost for words, I don't even know what to do in such a situation. It feels to me like... there was somebody tolerating it internally because a lot of things were going on, and a lot of things were getting listed and whitelisted very, very quickly. I don't know. But—

BC: I feel so sick, man. I feel so sick. Ugh. Because I gave him $MELANIA. I didn't know he was a rugger. I feel so sick. I feel like I'm super exposed, too. Like, I just belie— I just thought he was an okay guy. Like, I don't know. I've never met anyone, like he doesn't give off scam vibes to me. He just seemed nice, his family and everything.

MP: His family was wonderful. My wife, myself and my wife, really felt inspired. We had several conversations. My wife says, “hey, Moty, I'm even reconsidering having a baby earlier with you, because they inspired me.” I'm like, “oh, that's wonderful!”

BC: Oh my god, this is like the biggest rug family of the world. [sigh]

MP: Look, from our perspective, I don't think it's about me blaming anyone. I just said, as is, what I saw, what we... And I'm jetlagged lie crazy, 17 hours I didn't sleep, maybe 18. I don't know. I’m honestly lost for words.

BC: Ugh, fuck me. I just enabled the biggest criminal in the world.

MP: There is... let me give you a small list. I mean, I don't even know half of it. $AIAI, $MATES, $TRUMP, $MELANIA, $ENRON, I think they were also part of—

BC: He, he, he, he didn't do $TRUMP.

MP: No, no, he didn’t do $TRUMP, you're right. But he has a portion. But he didn't do it.

I mean, the co-founder knows much more. He's really scared. You know, he doesn't know what to do. I told him, “look, man, you're going to become a passive investor in DefiTuna because we can't...” He was working in isolation with... He's a good guy.

BC: Oh, I’m fucking burned, man, I’m fucking burned.

MP: He's a good guy, our co-founder, but he had no idea. Like, he had really no idea where all these tokens are coming from.

BC: [sigh] Fuck it. I'm burned, man. I'm going to have to step down. [sigh] Jesus. Fuck. Alright, I really appreciate this, man. You telling me this. I didn't know. I was totally rugged.

MP: [sigh] I um... I...

BC: I fucked them.

MP: Look, the scary part is, you know, in a position of power, you know, we trust people, and from the side, this is like a scary lesson for me to see all of it. Because to be frank, Meteora has one of the best performing launchpads. And you guys come up with, like, amazing tooling and everything. And everything looks very, very genuine from the side.

BC: I fucked up because I enabled a guy that I should not have enabled. Fuck. I'm going step d— I'm going to have to step down. I'm going to have to... I'm going to have to quit. Fuck.

MP: Look, again, you know, just me sharing, if there's anything that you'd like me to do or help you with something, let me know? I purposefully only reached out to people that were involved. So SOLBigBrain is our pre-seed and he connected me with Tom. He vouched for him.

BC: Dr. Tom? He vouched for Dr. Tom?

MP: Yeah, Dr. Tom, because he's a Boogle^q and they met and he said, “look, he's a great guy”. The only one that was throwing red flags at me was [video cuts] He was saying, “don't have”... when he found out that Kelsier invested $30k in us, he said, “man, are you crazy?” He said, “let's get on a call” and he told me “the amount of projects that got burned by Kelsier. The amount of projects.” He told me, “you— please, please, please, why Kelsier? I mean, everyone is amazing in your team. I mean, Orca invested in you guys, this, that. But no, no Kelsier.” And I hear these. That was when I... you know, that was like a thing where it clicked. I was really, really careful with them ever since then.

BC: Fuck, man. I didn't know. Like, I was... ah, man. Fuck me, man. Goddamn it. I had red flags, but I never saw anything. And I always thought it was just external snipers. [sigh]

MP: One thing that Hayden said, you know, that also didn't sit straight with me, he said like, “if Ben ever turns against us, we have enough to pin on him”. I don't know what that means.

BC: Wow.

MP: I don't know what that means. But be careful.

BC: Yeah...

MP: If there's anything we can help you— of course, it's not my position, not my place to help you. You know, you have a lot of people that know you better, know everything that's happening better. Look, Ben, I'm going to go to sleep because my eyes are shutting down.

BC: Yeah man. Thanks. Anything— what is your intention?

MP: Uh... I don't have an intention. [laughs] I just...

BC: Sorry [unintelligible] to share that?

MP: Yeah, because we were close. Like, we were really... Like, the co-founder was the guy who's getting the tokens. Like, 1% tokens of $MELANIA, 1% tokens of the other. Like, he was the guy who was actually being handed down and given the instructions of market making and selling.

BC: Fuck.

MP: They even asked us to make it in such a way where it's not possible to trace it. And what he came up with is... He came up with, and they said it was genius, opening up an Orca position, and you mint an NFT when you open up an Orca position. And then he would... he would send this NFT to Kelsier, and Kelsier would cash out. And it would be harder to trace because it appears as an NFT with money in it instead of a transfer of tokens. Does that make sense?

BC: What the fuck? He said all this stuff? Dude, I've been grifted, man. I've been totally grifted. Okay, all right, man. I'm— um. Are you sharing this with anyone else?

MP: The only ones who know is SOLBigBrain, Orca, co-founder, obviously, he was part of it. Danny, my brother, he's a CTO. Anyone who's core, who's really, really close, I shared with them. Because this is like high-level stuff. This isn't $10 or $100. This is in the multi-millions with a president, two presidents, one with his wife and the other is a president. Like, this is... I don't know anyone higher.

BC: Okay. All right, let me... let me, um. I'm really fucking scared, man. I'm gonna... All right, thanks, man.

MP: All right, Ben, have a good day, what can I say.

BC: Yeah, yeah, okay, thanks. Bye.

MP: Bye.